:: Updated by Hannar @ 01/20/04 08:06 pm ::

43. Servers, Including PVP, RP, and Other Rulesets


Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:19 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=105428&highlight=#105428

Moorgard wrote:

We don't have any plans to announce server names before the game goes live.

Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:58 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=108686&highlight=#108686

Moorgard wrote:

This topic has already been discussed internally, and a decision was made. Normal servers will allow multiple characters. While you can feel free to discuss the merits of that decision, it's not something up for debate. We may introduce servers with special rulesets that limit you to one character, but that would happen down the road.

Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:33 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=144327&highlight=#144327

Moorgard wrote:

While we do plan to have special rules servers, we're not going to promise them at launch. We'd really rather not rush out special rules servers without proper planning and testing; I think in the long run that would be worse than not having them right away. At a minimum I will advocate that a server be designated "roleplaying preferred," as that's something quite important to many players. Unfortunately the same kind of thing wouldn't be possible with a PvP server, as simply turning on a PvP flag and throwing balance to the wind would be a disservice to the customer base. Nor can we just copy over server code from EQLive--even if such a thing were possible, copying their rules without proper testing and tweaking wouldn't be a good solution. Whether we have special rules servers at launch depends on a number of factors, most notably the time necessary to design, code, and test them. I'll give specifics about our progress on this issue before release, but probably not long before then. This statement supercedes previous commentary on the subject.

Wed Nov 26, 2003 02:19 am
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=144432&highlight=#144432

Moorgard wrote:

Agraza wrote: If its a question of not being able to find the time to make it worthwhile I can understand. if its some BS about simply catering to the larger audience its not acceptable. Nothing I wrote says anything about catering to the larger audience as an excuse. As I stated, the main issue is time--time to do special rulesets right rather than rush something out the door. The goal is to do compelling PvP that has rewards beyond just fighting someone. We are not out to eliminate PvP players, but rather to offer something that might even attract more players to those servers. The question is whether we can do that in a way that's up to the standards we have for the game in the time before we ship. I hope we can, and I know you do, too. But I'm not going tell you "Oh yeah, it's coming, don't worry" if there's a possibility that we'd have to disappoint you later. Quasar of Ebonlore wrote: What is UNACCEPTABLE is that you are even remotely considering copying that crappy code in the first place. How many PvPers has SOE lost due to that code. That code didn't/doesn't work and PvPers aren't looking for EQ2 with EQ1 PvP code. OMG that would be the biggest mistake to date in PvP in a MMOG. Which, if you read what I wrote, was exactly my point. Based on the complaints I've seen about the implementation of PvP in some other games (including EQ), I really think most people who enjoy PvP want to see it done well. Those who are saying "Just give us something!" in this thread would complain as loud as anyone about a bad PvP implementation. We want to offer gameplay to the PvP market that is done well. We'd like to offer it the day we ship, but I can't guarantee it, so I won't. If it takes us extra time to get it right, then in the long run it's better for everyone if we do that.

Wed Nov 26, 2003 03:00 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=144815&highlight=#144815

Moorgard wrote:

Overnight this thread has quickly lost much of its relevance due to flaming and personal attacks. Not unexpected, but regretable nonetheless. However, if I may address a few key points: 1. It was indeed said some time ago that we would have PvP servers at launch, which is why the fact that we might not does raise, I feel, a legitimate complaint. However, I prefer seeing complaints voiced in a clear, straightforward, and organized manner. Long threads filled with personal attacks and bickering are a sure way to lose my attention. 2. Just having PvP in the game doesn't make it fun, anymore than just having a dragon in a game makes it fun. If the dragon is stupid or broken or lame, then there is no value to it. We want our game mechanics to add fun and purpose to the game, not be there just for the sake of being there. 3. Implementing PvP within our combat system is not trivial. Since PvE is the main source of character advancement and loot in our game, players have to first be balanced against the environment. Balance is not just about offensive and defensive power, but about what useful roles each class fills. Being a vital support class is great in PvE, but isn't so great if it means you're an easy target for ganking all the time. 4. There are a lot of numbers and "facts" being haphazzardly thrown around in this thread. Please don't assume that we don't have any data on the PvP customer base. Lineage is hugely successful in the Asian market, in no small part because that market is big on PvP. However, the Asian market also favors a certain artistic style as well as the "click mouse button, move there" method of moving your character around. It is unlikely that our game would attract a large portion of those players even if we have a strong PvP ruleset. PvP is an element of gameplay, and as such is not--and will not be--the only factor in a game's success or failure. I appreciate the fact that some people love PvP, and that entire social structures can be built around this commonality. But please try to remember, during the course of your advocacy, that there are also people who don't enjoy it and wouldn't want any part of it even if we had the best PvP ever. That doesn't make them wrong and you right, nor the other way around. Defeating a smart opponent can be very satisfying--it's the basis for sporting events on all levels. Being griefed and shamed for losing is not fun for most people, however, and that is the biggest stumbling block to PvP acceptance in our culture. I'd love to see a consolidated thread for PvP ideas that takes into account what you know about our game mechanics. This should be maintained by a single voice, kind of a PvP index with the best ideas added to the initial post. For that matter, I'd like to see the same thing from the RP community, whose voice has kind of been lost in all the shouting.

Wed Nov 26, 2003 04:34 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=144877&highlight=#144877

Moorgard wrote:

This is not what I requested. I'd like a consolidated thread much like the Moorgard Index that is started and maintained by a single person who acts as a filter for unworkable ideas. Clearly this needs to be done by a person well versed in PvP, not someone who isn't really interested in the topic. Basically, I want one place I can go that has a single post I can look at that is updated with the latest ideas. Also, I'd prefer it as a sticky in the PvP forum. Mods, please lock this thread.

Mon Dec 01, 2003 02:59 am
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=147701&highlight=#147701

Moorgard wrote:

Thanks for the work on the PvP summation thread, Agraza. I was troubled over the weekend because I felt I didn't make myself clear before I left, especially in regard to this thread and the topic of a PvP server in general. So tonight I wanted to clarify my intent. Those of you who played EQ a few years back may remember when each of the class boards had a "class discussion" thread started by Absor (if I recall correctly) as a means to collect ideas on class issues and suggested changes. The threads grew bigger and faster than I think anyone anticipated. But more than that, they created the expectation that the devs were going to institute widespread changes based on the feedback given. While some game changes were in fact made because of those threads, of course there were many more suggestions that were never acted upon for a variety of reasons. To this day it's not at all uncommon to see people refer to those threads as an example of SOE not listening to its customers, despite the fact that they did (and do). So what bothered me this weekend was that I may have made the same kind of mistake before I left, and I want to be as clear as possible before this thread leads to a similar level of expectation and potential disappointment. I certainly don't want you to think, "Well, I made this cool suggestion and they didn't use it. Either they are clueless or don't really care what I have to say." I assure you that's not the case at all, but we do need to set a few things straight. First off, when I expressed an interest in seeing threads on PvP and RP server ideas, I was speaking on behalf of myself only--not the dev team. I wanted to have a consolidated place to see ideas that the community has discussed and thinks are reasonably sound. I was not asking you to design a PvP or RP ruleset for us, or promising that we'd use ideas you came up with. While we certainly look at ideas from players and examine the solutions used by other games, ultimately the design decisions will be made by our team. Our implementation of PvP may be entirely different from the suggestions presented here, but that doesn't mean your ideas weren't read and considered. Second, I want to state again that time may well be the deciding factor on these issues. While it would certainly be preferable to have both types of special rules servers available at launch, there are other facets of the game that will get a higher priority. Finally, I wish to address the statement that we should have been paying attention to PvP all along. In fact we have, but our emphasis has been on indirect player competition instead of player combat. IPvP is a concept that we intend to expand beyond the faction system you've learned about so far, but I'd rather wait until we see how far we're taking it with our initial release before I talk more about it. And before you say it, I fully realize many of you want the full-on combat system as well; I just wanted to point out that an optional means of competition will be present via the IPvP system. Again, I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear to begin with. I don't want you to develop expectations about these threads that are unrealistic. My intent was that they would be a means of easing communication between us on these rather complex issues. Unfortunately their existence will not affect the chances of us having PvP or RP rules servers at launch; that will be decided by an entirely different set of variables.

Mon Dec 01, 2003 03:13 am
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=147707&highlight=#147707

Moorgard wrote:

I posted this over in the PvP forum, but it pertains to this topic as well so I'm copying the relevant portions here: =================== I was troubled over the weekend because I felt I didn't make myself clear before I left, especially in regard to this thread and the topic of an RP server in general. So tonight I wanted to clarify my intent. Those of you who played EQ a few years back may remember when each of the class boards had a "class discussion" thread started by Absor (if I recall correctly) as a means to collect ideas on class issues and suggested changes. The threads grew bigger and faster than I think anyone anticipated. But more than that, they created the expectation that the devs were going to institute widespread changes based on the feedback given. While some game changes were in fact made because of those threads, of course there were many more suggestions that were never acted upon for a variety of reasons. To this day it's not at all uncommon to see people refer to those threads as an example of SOE not listening to its customers, despite the fact that they did. So what bothered me this weekend was that I may have made the same kind of mistake before I left, and I want to be as clear as possible before this thread leads to a similar level of expectation and potential disappointment. I certainly don't want you to think, "Well, I made this cool suggestion and they didn't use it. Either they are clueless or don't really care what I have to say." I assure you that's not the case at all, but we do need to set a few things straight. First off, when I expressed an interest in seeing threads on PvP and RP server ideas, I was speaking on behalf of myself only--not the dev team. I wanted to have a consolidated place to see ideas that the community has discussed and thinks are reasonably sound. I was not asking you to design a PvP or RP ruleset for us, or promising that we'd use ideas you came up with. While we certainly look at ideas from players and examine the solutions used by other games, ultimately the design decisions will be made by our team. Our implementation of PvP or RP may be entirely different from the suggestions presented here, but that doesn't mean your ideas weren't read and considered. Second, I want to state again that time may well be the deciding factor on these issues. While it would certainly be preferable to have both types of special rules servers available at launch, there are other facets of the game that take a higher priority. Again, I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear to begin with. I don't want you to develop expectations about these threads that are unrealistic. My intent was that they would be a means of easing communication between us on these rather complex issues. Unfortunately their existence will not affect the chances of us having PvP or RP rules servers at launch; that will be decided by an entirely different set of variables.

Mon Dec 01, 2003 04:21 am
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=147734&highlight=#147734

Moorgard wrote:

ratboy wrote: If none of the ideas presented in this forum ever get used, it's not wasted effort. The primary focus should be on building a good game, and if you do that, there will be no retaliation. (At least, none that's significant). I'd like to believe that, but history has already proven your view to be in the minority. If I say, "Hey, let's work together and come up with a really cool PvP system!" it would probably motivate and excite the community. But if the work is done and that solution is not used, it would breed a lot of resentment. Very soon I'd be seeing polls about why we ignored the community (either we're clueless, uncaring, or it was all a scam designed to keep you distracted). Granted, if our solution rocked then it wouldn't be as big an issue, but even so there would be backlash. Look at any EQ board for discussions about the proposed melee changes to see what I mean. Quote: Don't worry about resentment as long as you folks are up front. Again, there's that pesky history again... Drakenred wrote: and now Moor is probably asleep. (hopefuly)

12/1/03 9:59am
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=60369926&start=60413027

Moorgard wrote:

Quote: "Probably cap you on a total number per account and not limit it per server if I had to guess." This is in fact probably what we'll do, but nothing has been set in stone yet.

12/1/03 10:08am
http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=60209995&start=60413435

Moorgard wrote:

Please note that I did not make an announcement stating we would not have PvP. I said that we couldn't guarantee having special rules servers at launch, to which a bunch of people replied "I can't believe you're not having PvP at launch." My post was intended as an update in order to keep expectations in line with what we can and will deliver. When I know something more definite on the subject I will make an official statement on the status of special rules servers, but this will probably not occur for some time.

Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:45 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=147924&highlight=#147924

Moorgard wrote:

Drakenred wrote: Dude! Get some sleep before you show up for work! its usualy a good idea. We have a limitless supply of caffeine downstairs for just this very situation. Quote: And dont worry, we all know you work at SOE, Its unlickly that you will be as hated as Abashi. Careful now. He might be the guy who ends up writing the PvP code. Gordon might have taken a lot of heat as the first community guy, but he's an excellent programmer and valuable member of our team.

12/01/03 03:55 PM
Stratics

Moorgard wrote:

I said that we can't guarantee having special rules servers at launch, which many posters then turned into a "there will be no PvP at launch" thread. We may or may not; it is really a matter of resources and time. I simply wanted people to be prepared in case the goal can't be met. The threads at eqii.com are merely there to consolidate ideas, not as a place to design a PvP system or anything. Threads on that or any other message board will not affect whether we have special rule sets at launch.

Tue Dec 02, 2003 03:32 am
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=148650&highlight=#148650

Moorgard wrote:

It is worth noting that there is one primary reason we're using locked encounters: to make combat more tactical. Hindering KSing is a nice side benefit, but it's not the motivation. As such, it stands to reason that we'd like PvP to be strategic as well. But is open PvP really tactical, or is it most often a case of might making right? Is there a way our mechanics could make PvP more tactical in a way that would increase the satisfaction you get by outplaying someone else?

Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:13 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=148871&highlight=#148871

Moorgard wrote:

Aenor wrote: Just be sure to tell Gordon that his legacy is at stake here. If he does a good job with the PvP code for EQII... Please don't take my aside about Gordon too literally. A system as complex as PvP wouldn't be coded by just one person--so many other game systems are affected, I'm sure many programmers would be working on it. And at any rate, PvP wouldn't be designed by the coders anyway. They build stuff, but they aren't designers.

Tue Dec 02, 2003 01:04 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=148917&highlight=#148917

Moorgard wrote:

Arkin wrote: It keep the PvP community small and does not provide an environment that encourages much in the way of new players, from my antecdotal experience. One of the things I'm asking myself when I read these threads is "Which of these ideas would make PvP sound fun to me?" It's probably pretty obvious that I've never been much of a PvP guy. FPS games were never my thing, and although I loved UO, I hated the arbitrary PvP elements of it. That is, when someone would simply max out the most powerful skill of the week (archery, for instance) and have an advantage over someone else due to an unbalanced mechanic. That said, I enjoyed PlanetSide quite a lot, and I'm not entirely sure why. Perhaps it was because I never felt like anyone else had an insurmountable advantage over me--higher ranks gave you more options, but not necessarily more strength. Even though my deaths far outweighed my kills, I had fun rushing time and time again into an enemy stronghold. Maybe it was because I felt like my actions and those of my rivals had a sense of purpose instead of killing each other randomly. I fully understand that some people want to make their own direction in PvP rather than having it assigned to them. The paradox is that this same lawlessness would drive others away from the genre.

Mon Dec 08, 2003 01:01 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=153107&highlight=#153107

Moorgard wrote:

Aenor wrote: Actually, when you die, you have the option to remain with your corpse pending resurrection, or respawn at your bind point. So there will be corpses in EQII. No, we don't create a corpse in the same sense that EverQuest does. As I've said, the death mechanic is still being worked on, although we're pretty sure we've come up with our final implementation of it. I won't go into details now, but for purposes of this discussion I can say that it doesn't create a lootable corpse of any kind. And whatever kind of PvP ruleset we end up with, I'd consider it highly unlikely that we'd add in server-specific code to generate a corpse only on PvP servers. That is to say, item loot of any sort is improbable.

Mon Dec 08, 2003 01:14 pm
http://www.eqii.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=153122&highlight=#153122

Moorgard wrote:

Ewle Ebonlore wrote: Good god not another thread with these 2 bickering back and forth... /cues up the Barry White... Anyway, this is an interesting topic. Speaking for myself, I'd want death to have the same implications in PvP as in PvE. You shouldn't *want* to die. This game shouldn't be about charging endlessly into a death loop because you feel bored or giggly. You should want to be victorious because the alternative has a price. That's my thinking. But I wonder, is such a view contrary to mainstream PvP philosophy? Do you want your guild to be unafraid of charging into battle because there are no real consequences to death, or do you want people who are motivated to be successful precisely because there are risks involved?

:: Updated by Hannar @ 07/03/04 04:09 pm ::

04-07-2004 12:20 AM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=37009#M37009

Moorgard wrote:

The server name was purely random and is not indicative of what we intend to name our production servers.

04-17-2004 08:50 PM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=50427#M50427

Moorgard wrote:

There has already been a sizable thread about PvP, and we realize many players would like a server for it. However, we are not planning to have one at launch. If you want to discuss ideas for PvP, you can post them in the thread that already exists on the subject.

05-02-2004 11:22 PM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=70297#M70297

Moorgard wrote:

We will not release info on server names prior to launch.

05-15-2004 01:54 PM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=97489#M97489

Moorgard wrote:

Since the game isn't out yet, it's rather hard to make definitive statements on the amount of server downtime there will be.

05-25-2004 01:32 PM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=113826#M113826

Moorgard wrote:

We don't plan to have a PvP server at release. If this thread continues to devolve into bickering, it will be locked. Do not try to assert that PvP sucks or that PvP rules, because neither case can be proven. It is purely a matter of opinion, so accept it and realize that people will disagree with you.

06-02-2004 11:08 PM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=123423#M123423

Moorgard wrote:

Like so many other threads on the subject of PvP, this one is quickly devolving into insults and defensive reactions over preference or distaste for the playstyle. So I'm locking it. But I will address the central question first. It is correct that we did not say whether we will have full PvP servers in the future or not. Honestly, we just don't know at this point. It obviously isn't a central tenet of our game design, or else we'd be much more definite on the subject. We have a finite pool of resources and time before we ship, so we'll just have to see how the cards fall. I do think, however, that you should buy a game for what it is, not for what it might be someday. We certainly aren't trying to mislead people or get them to buy EverQuest II under false pretenses. At this point, we simply do not have a definite answer.

06-10-2004 08:09 PM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=130029#M130029

Moorgard wrote:

There are no plans for a PvP server at release. There is no ETA on when or if we will ever have one. We have consistently said that we'd like to find new ways to present PvP that will hopefully make the gameplay more attractive to a wider audience. This hasn't changed with the Q&A that was quoted. Whatever kind of PvP we do or do not implement in the future is likely to be considerably different from what many people might be expecting. That is, in fact, our goal. I can tell you absolutely that we are not currently working on redefining existing PvP rulesets to make some revised version of the Zek servers. That's not even on our plate at the moment. If we choose to feature PvP in the future, our preference is to make it a new style of play that is presented as an option to our customers rather than a kludge of existing gameplay.

:: Updated by Hannar @ 08/01/04 06:43 pm ::

07-26-2004 01:05 AM
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general&message.id=158761#M158761

Moorgard wrote:

No, we haven't announced anything about server names and don't plan to do so before launch day.